A friend of mine (not local) and I had a conversation over msn, and he was questioning my stand against legalised euthanasia, because he empathises with people who are actually seeking euthanasia to relieve suffering. Here’s our conversation, him (A) and me(Me)
A http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23283804-2,00.html
it’s REALLY strong to watch
you can google for more images of her and about what she had…. she committed suicide….
it’s about someone that had a weird kind of cancer…. but it deformed her….
Me here’s what i think. There are some laws which you can’t enforce, and they do more harm then the good it’s supposed to. example. laws against abortions. Whether you legalise them, they happen. When they are legalised, girls go to hospital, where the death rate from abortions are below 2%. Make them illegal, and they STILL do happen, in backstreets where the deathrate is 40%.
If you clamp down on illegal abortions, abortions will still be done — by the girls themselves. And then the deathrate really shoots up. So it’s better to legalise abortions.
Another example. Laws against sex with minors (girls below 16) Again, you can’t enforce them, and girls below 16 will still have sex with their boyfriends. But if they get pregnant or get an STI, they will be terrified to go to the doctor because they love their boyfriends. So they risk their own lives with DIY cures
Another example Laws against homosexuality. You can’t enforce them, and it still happens. But then educationists and the media (in singapore at least) cannot talk about it, so they cannot increase awareness or safe sex or they cannot seek legal protection or anything !
The same thing with euthanasia. I’m pro-choice. Whether or not you legalise suicide or euthanasia, it will happen., But the moment you legalise Assisted suicided, or assisted euthanasia, you’ll get a lot of abuse cases which are hard to prove. In essesne you are legalising murder, not suicide
Plus, what is the incentive for the government to subsidise sophisticated, but expensive healthcare, if death is always an option you can provide?
Many people choose euthanasia because they don’t want to be a financial burden. If the govt does not increase subsidies, but uses legalised euthanasia as an option when medical budgets get “too high” you will have more people opting for legal euthanasia
I agree some people would choose death over suffering , and no one can stop them from suicide if they are really determined. I think they have a moral right to. but its their choice not for the state to endorse or encourage
A ok, the first 3 I am completely on your side….. the more a subject becomes taboo because it goes against religion or whatever, the worse it gets….. I say religion because sex and homosexuality usually are banned/persecuted/illegal because of a goverment’s proximity with churches and religion….
now, in Euthanasia…. let’s split it in two, let’s talk about health care first, because you said some interesting things about cost and burden there, and then there is the moral and ethic decisions there…
Health care: let’s go utopia for a second, imagine we have a perfect health care system that allows you to be able to receive the medical attention you deserve for a cost that doesn’t make you a burden on your family, like hopefully Obama will do in the USA……. now, there are a bunch of cases in which euthanasia is practised but not with that name, like stage-4 cancers in which patients are put off life-support because all that is left for them is to suffer….. but on the other hand, and me being in science community feel a little guilty, is that we don’t have answer for every disease that is out there….
I had an aunt (fav aunt) that died in one year and we all knew it was going to happen since the beginning…. or this woman I just showed you, I can’t imagine how she felt, what she thought about, how she managed to go outside without feeling rejected by society, which is why she pleaded for death, and in the end she got it….. now, didn’t she deserve better?
Me now what if your aunt, or child had a terminal illness, and all the standard cures that were subsidised (in singapore, only certain things are subsidised) were useless to help her. You hear of this potential cure, but it is REALLY expensive. But you really love your child and want him to live. If you were very rich, you give up your holiday to europe, to pay for the treatment for your child.
If you were middle class, you sell your house and belongings for your child. If you were poor, you choose euthanasia for your child because there is no way you can afford and the government will not pay, because euthanasia is a legal option
What if that’s not your child. What if that’s your aged parent? Then would you even sell your house for your parent?
A I see your point…. and I think your problem is more with the current health care situation than Euthaniasia itself…. yes, I agree that you shouldn’t help someone die if there’s a hope to save him…… although the situation in which the cure might work would maybe would mean more suffering for that person…..
I know I’d without a shadow of a doubt save my child…
I also know my mother would ask me not to lose all my savings for her because she already ‘lived her life’
Me I’ve no problem with euthanasia itself, i’ve a problem with the state using it as a healthcare option, which is what they are aiming for in legalising it
A Ok, we are on more common ground then…. because when I think of euthanasia, I think about the patient first….. is he/she suffering (and by that I don’t mean only pain, I also mean mental anguish)? is there hope for him? does he want that hope?…… but yeah, having euthanasia FORCED on you because no one will pay, I’m against that too
Me where do you draw the line? If the person was poor , could not afford, and choose to let his mother die, is that legal euthanasia? If the person was rich, but chose not to give up his europe holiday, and chose to let his mother die of the same cause as the poor guys, is that legal euthanasia? or if the person did not want to sell his house?
legalised euthanasia does not aim to protect the patient, it aims to protect the people who assisted the patient.
A Where do you draw the line? I honestly can say I don’t know…. with my aunt we did our best to keep her with us as long as possible…. with this woman, I’m guessing she wanted the total opposite….. But, money or resources should NOT be the main deciding factor of something thinking about life and death…… and when it is, it just throws everything off-balance, for everyone…..
q for you… can you imagine a way in which you had the resources to save yourself but would chose not to?
Me i can……. and i would support anyone who made that choice….. but it has to be a personal choice, not something other people choose for you. Money should definately NOT be the main deciding factor, but you know humans. The moment you give it that legal loophole, every murder case will become a case of legalised murder…….
A I know, but I do believe pacients should, in some cases, have access to it, but those “cases” should be entirely medical and not economical….. but actually I think the goverment would make a better health care than private insurance companies….. but you are right, drawing the line is tricky……
Me in a perfect Utopia, where everyone is perfectly ethical , and the government is perfectly responsible in providing the best health care, i will applaud legalised euthanasia……… but given what reality is …… And the health minister proposed in the context of “an aging population” and “overwhelming cost of medical care” and the “need for creative solutions”
A “need for creative solutions”? isn’t creativity like one of the utmost principles of life?
Me its like , should we allow private citizens to keep guns at home, given that we have the right to defend ourselves…. yes……………… it is……….. they just want to market euthanasia and justify capping medical benefits
the sad thing is, few people see it that way
the catholic church came out against it today, and many people opposed the church , because they resent religious decrees….
but no one really looks at the motivation behind the governments proposal
even the right thing made for the wrong reasons is a wrong thing to do……
A the thing we might not understand is that maybe (based on what my mother has told me) they (older people) are ok with this because they don’t want to burden their families, they don’t want to be tied down to a bed or a hospital, they’d rather go than have a half-quality-life……
Me sigh……. yeh i can see where your mother comes from
and i can see why people may support it for those reasons
many parents think that way too……
Legalised Euthanasia (Read: STATE ENDORSED)vs the Pro-Choice euthanasia: A Debate
A friend of mine (not local) and I had a conversation over msn, and he was questioning my stand against legalised euthanasia, because he empathises with people who are actually seeking euthanasia to relieve suffering. Here’s our conversation, him (A) and me(Me)
A http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23283804-2,00.html
it’s REALLY strong to watch
you can google for more images of her and about what she had…. she committed suicide….
it’s about someone that had a weird kind of cancer…. but it deformed her….
Me here’s what i think. There are some laws which you can’t enforce, and they do more harm then the good it’s supposed to. example. laws against abortions. Whether you legalise them, they happen. When they are legalised, girls go to hospital, where the death rate from abortions are below 2%. Make them illegal, and they STILL do happen, in backstreets where the deathrate is 40%.
If you clamp down on illegal abortions, abortions will still be done — by the girls themselves. And then the deathrate really shoots up. So it’s better to legalise abortions.
Another example. Laws against sex with minors (girls below 16) Again, you can’t enforce them, and girls below 16 will still have sex with their boyfriends. But if they get pregnant or get an STI, they will be terrified to go to the doctor because they love their boyfriends. So they risk their own lives with DIY cures
Another example Laws against homosexuality. You can’t enforce them, and it still happens. But then educationists and the media (in singapore at least) cannot talk about it, so they cannot increase awareness or safe sex or they cannot seek legal protection or anything !
The same thing with euthanasia. I’m pro-choice. Whether or not you legalise suicide or euthanasia, it will happen., But the moment you legalise Assisted suicided, or assisted euthanasia, you’ll get a lot of abuse cases which are hard to prove. In essesne you are legalising murder, not suicide
Plus, what is the incentive for the government to subsidise sophisticated, but expensive healthcare, if death is always an option you can provide?
Many people choose euthanasia because they don’t want to be a financial burden. If the govt does not increase subsidies, but uses legalised euthanasia as an option when medical budgets get “too high” you will have more people opting for legal euthanasia
I agree some people would choose death over suffering , and no one can stop them from suicide if they are really determined. I think they have a moral right to. but its their choice not for the state to endorse or encourage
A ok, the first 3 I am completely on your side….. the more a subject becomes taboo because it goes against religion or whatever, the worse it gets….. I say religion because sex and homosexuality usually are banned/persecuted/illegal because of a goverment’s proximity with churches and religion….
now, in Euthanasia…. let’s split it in two, let’s talk about health care first, because you said some interesting things about cost and burden there, and then there is the moral and ethic decisions there…
Health care: let’s go utopia for a second, imagine we have a perfect health care system that allows you to be able to receive the medical attention you deserve for a cost that doesn’t make you a burden on your family, like hopefully Obama will do in the USA……. now, there are a bunch of cases in which euthanasia is practised but not with that name, like stage-4 cancers in which patients are put off life-support because all that is left for them is to suffer….. but on the other hand, and me being in science community feel a little guilty, is that we don’t have answer for every disease that is out there….
I had an aunt (fav aunt) that died in one year and we all knew it was going to happen since the beginning…. or this woman I just showed you, I can’t imagine how she felt, what she thought about, how she managed to go outside without feeling rejected by society, which is why she pleaded for death, and in the end she got it….. now, didn’t she deserve better?
Me now what if your aunt, or child had a terminal illness, and all the standard cures that were subsidised (in singapore, only certain things are subsidised) were useless to help her. You hear of this potential cure, but it is REALLY expensive. But you really love your child and want him to live. If you were very rich, you give up your holiday to europe, to pay for the treatment for your child.
If you were middle class, you sell your house and belongings for your child. If you were poor, you choose euthanasia for your child because there is no way you can afford and the government will not pay, because euthanasia is a legal option
What if that’s not your child. What if that’s your aged parent? Then would you even sell your house for your parent?
A I see your point…. and I think your problem is more with the current health care situation than Euthaniasia itself…. yes, I agree that you shouldn’t help someone die if there’s a hope to save him…… although the situation in which the cure might work would maybe would mean more suffering for that person…..
I know I’d without a shadow of a doubt save my child…
I also know my mother would ask me not to lose all my savings for her because she already ‘lived her life’
Me I’ve no problem with euthanasia itself, i’ve a problem with the state using it as a healthcare option, which is what they are aiming for in legalising it
A Ok, we are on more common ground then…. because when I think of euthanasia, I think about the patient first….. is he/she suffering (and by that I don’t mean only pain, I also mean mental anguish)? is there hope for him? does he want that hope?…… but yeah, having euthanasia FORCED on you because no one will pay, I’m against that too
Me where do you draw the line? If the person was poor , could not afford, and choose to let his mother die, is that legal euthanasia? If the person was rich, but chose not to give up his europe holiday, and chose to let his mother die of the same cause as the poor guys, is that legal euthanasia? or if the person did not want to sell his house?
legalised euthanasia does not aim to protect the patient, it aims to protect the people who assisted the patient.
A Where do you draw the line? I honestly can say I don’t know…. with my aunt we did our best to keep her with us as long as possible…. with this woman, I’m guessing she wanted the total opposite….. But, money or resources should NOT be the main deciding factor of something thinking about life and death…… and when it is, it just throws everything off-balance, for everyone…..
q for you… can you imagine a way in which you had the resources to save yourself but would chose not to?
Me i can……. and i would support anyone who made that choice….. but it has to be a personal choice, not something other people choose for you. Money should definately NOT be the main deciding factor, but you know humans. The moment you give it that legal loophole, every murder case will become a case of legalised murder…….
A I know, but I do believe pacients should, in some cases, have access to it, but those “cases” should be entirely medical and not economical….. but actually I think the goverment would make a better health care than private insurance companies….. but you are right, drawing the line is tricky……
Me in a perfect Utopia, where everyone is perfectly ethical , and the government is perfectly responsible in providing the best health care, i will applaud legalised euthanasia……… but given what reality is …… And the health minister proposed in the context of “an aging population” and “overwhelming cost of medical care” and the “need for creative solutions”
A “need for creative solutions”? isn’t creativity like one of the utmost principles of life?
Me its like , should we allow private citizens to keep guns at home, given that we have the right to defend ourselves…. yes……………… it is……….. they just want to market euthanasia and justify capping medical benefits
the sad thing is, few people see it that way
the catholic church came out against it today, and many people opposed the church , because they resent religious decrees….
but no one really looks at the motivation behind the governments proposal
even the right thing made for the wrong reasons is a wrong thing to do……
A the thing we might not understand is that maybe (based on what my mother has told me) they (older people) are ok with this because they don’t want to burden their families, they don’t want to be tied down to a bed or a hospital, they’d rather go than have a half-quality-life……
Me sigh……. yeh i can see where your mother comes from
and i can see why people may support it for those reasons
many parents think that way too……