Mathia Lee ~ Plans and Preoccupations

Minimum wage should come from taxpayers, not businesses

Posted in economics, Social Commentary by mathialee on December 17, 2008

Here’s my 2-cents worth on the Minimum-wage issue that many people seem to be advocating as a means to help the lower income. My disclaimer: I’m way out of my depth here, I’m ignorant about how the country is run financially or how economics works (my JC refused to let me do Econs with Bio, and forced me to do Physics instead. No disrespect to you physicists out there, but till today, I don’t see how learning the equations of gravity has helped me at all — no matter what, we all stick to the ground). So this is my 2-cents worth that i’ll ask everyone to take with a pinch of salt. And I’ll LOVE to hear your views, especially if you disagree.

You know how, during PE lessons, when you have to play a 2-sided ball game, and you need to form your teams ?  There’ll be some really really lousy people (I was one) , and if the teacher forced everybody to play, the team quality will be compromised with the lousy people. To have good teams, and a good game, it is more beneficial for the lousy people to stay out of the game. These lousy people “contribute” by staying out of the way. Now, lets say that the teacher rewards the teams — the winning team gets a chocolate bar each. If you were a lousy person, staying out of the game means you WILL NEVER get a chocolate bar. If you insist on being in the game, you MAY get a chocolate bar because your team mates might be able to compensate for you and still win the game. But if you insist on being in the game, the ENTIRE team will actually lower its chances of getting chocolate bars and will thus suffer with you in the game. But its not fair to force you out and deny you of your chance totally. The most beneficial thing for the team to then do is, ask you to stay out of the game, and for agreeing to do so, they will each give you a small portion of their chocolate bar each, such that at the end, you get almost the same amount that everyone else gets. This way, the team has a better chance of getting the chocolate, and you have contributed to that  increased chance by staying out, and you are compensated for that act. The teacher should not be the one to give you, the lousy person, extra chocolate, because then the teacher will be rewarding both the top players, and the non-players, and everyone would naturally want to be a non-player then.

Taking this principle, and applying it to the Minimum Wage issue.

I do agree that anyone living in singapore has to have a certain minimum income in order to live in a decent manner. But I do see the govt view about having to remain competitive. Because if I were a businessman, I wouldn’t like laws that prevent me from doing my businesses at the lowest possible cost. How would I benefit, as a businessman, from hiring a more expensive person over a cheaper person, for the same work done? And how would I benefit to pay someone more than he is worth, because of a minimum wage law?  Businesses may move out to regional countries if we force them to pay a minimum wage, which i suspect might be quite high to make sure the worker can live decently in Singapore.

Businesses moving out of the country is bad for the country. When the businesses move out , these low income earners would be reduced from fighting for a minimum wage to fighting for a job. That leads to problems for the country as a whole due to the social cost.

So at the end of the day, it is the entire country’s population that benefits from making sure business can be unethical, and can pay workers competitively, so that they remain here. But who pays the price for that benefit? Currently, it’s these low income earners that pay the price. Do they benefit? Yes, to a certain extent, because at least they have jobs. But it’s the ENTIRE population that really stands to benefit the most, and the entire population is NOT paying for it at the moment. We’re trying to shift the cost of this benefit from the low income earners to the businesses, when we are the ones benefiting. We are the ones who ought to pay the costs.

And so I think that these low income earners should have their income TOPPED UP to that minimum level to live decently. Topped up with TAXPAYER money, rather than with the businesses money. And we should pay more taxes for that. Because we benefit from their “cheap labour”. Even for the chronically unemployed, one could argue tha we benefit from their “unemployment” because these people tend to be really lousy workers and forcing businesses to hire them will not be productive. So we should support them with our taxes.

And of course we need the government to enforce that tax increase. Charities are unfair, because with the charity model, the kind-hearted people are paying the cost, and why should we reward selfishness and make the kind-hearted pay?  Taxation make sures that everyone contributes fairly.

So what do you all think?

11 Responses

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  2. mathialee said, on December 17, 2008 at 3:29 pm

    A discussion I had with Daniel Ling from informationreadbyme.blogspot.com/ when we were both supposed to be working.

    Ling says:
    actually my idea of saying no to min wage is same as urs
    Ling says:
    tat tax should be higher
    mathia says:
    yeh
    Ling says:
    currently our tax rate at different income group are different
    Ling says:
    so shoudl leverage on this and just adjust the rates
    mathia says:
    we should have 20% gst
    Ling says:
    but THIS DOESN”T SOLVE THE ROOT CAUSE
    Ling says:
    er… gst i disagree
    mathia says:
    and then use the money to top up the bottom income
    Ling says:
    ROOT CAUSE is still SG too ex to live in
    mathia says:
    gst is more fair
    Ling says:
    then i ask u. If the Rich also dun spend how
    mathia says:
    this way can holiday cheapers
    Ling says:
    how to top up the poor if there no funds coming in
    mathia says:
    up the GST, and then also increase the income tax for top bracket
    mathia says:
    increase income tax on foreigners more than locals
    Ling says:
    increase income tax across the board
    mathia says:
    nope
    Ling says:
    not just top bracket
    mathia says:
    top bracket
    Ling says:
    cannot just top bracket
    mathia says:
    this way it reduces the pressure on society to strive for the top as well
    Ling says:
    then less pple wan to become elites?
    Ling says:
    i think tat’s not good also
    mathia says:
    in scandinavia, the tax structure make it such that the kindergarden and uni teachers earn almost the same
    mathia says:
    so people there are not striving to the top for money
    mathia says:
    they are free to go for their interest
    mathia says:
    as a result you get better quality kindergarden teachers
    Ling says:
    hmm… i feel tat due to the nature of SG… this country
    mathia says:
    cos here, only the lousy, cannot make it to the top, become kindergarden teachers
    Ling says:
    no materials, relying on Export Import
    Ling says:
    this economy model is correct
    Ling says:
    tat we rely on attracting foreign companies to plant their business here
    Ling says:
    , i agree with this model
    mathia says:
    yeh agree
    Ling says:
    so if adjust tax system bbase on ur suggestion, it will make pple not wan to strive
    Ling says:
    then we lose our greatest strength which is the pple
    mathia says:
    no
    Ling says:
    coz it’s a undeniable fact tat most pple strive for money
    mathia says:
    which makes ppl sad
    mathia says:
    if people strive for interest and passion, do you know how inspirational that is!?!?!?
    mathia says:
    how much more motivated ppl can be?
    Ling says:
    Yes Yes i agree…

    There are bound to be pple who strive for interest, but like i said, it’s undeniable tat More Pple strive for money. Thus if u remove this incentive, there will be less climbers then we lose our Human Materials.
    mathia says:
    that’s an unproven assumption
    mathia says:
    there was an experiment done once
    mathia says:
    2 group of ppl
    mathia says:
    exactly same task
    mathia says:
    one group ask to do for free
    mathia says:
    the other group paid 30cents per watever done
    mathia says:
    the group for free was more motivated, even when asked to do more, because they began to find external reasons to justify what they do
    mathia says:
    the ones who were paid started te same
    mathia says:
    then started to complain 30c too little
    mathia says:
    when ask to do more, they very unhappy
    mathia says:
    becos no increase
    Ling says:
    I heard of this experiment before. But bring it into the society, i think the theory may break up.

    And if i remember the experiment, the task were just simple task. There wasn’t any responsibility. It more of fun and games stuff.
    mathia says:
    no
    mathia says:
    the experiment was not fun and games
    Ling says:
    icic
    mathia says:
    they were not told its just for fun and games
    Ling says:
    but how about if the pay of 30cent was increase to way more
    Ling says:
    if u ask me to do my job now for free, i won’t do it
    Ling says:
    u get wat i mean? it’s hard to compare tat experiment to the society
    mathia says:
    think about this. Housewife work for free in her own house often do a better job than a paid cleaner
    Ling says:
    i think it’s very dependent on the context of the work
    Ling says:
    basically u r right. It’s not just about the money.

    But if we are talking about striving for the top, etc, i think tat reducing the incentives in terms of money will screw things up…

    just look at our PAP can le… and our CEOs. do u noe tat in SG, the elites none of them practice the “Live by Company, Die by Company” meaning tat they still take huge pay even if company falls
    Ling says:
    tat’s money talking. not interest
    mathia says:
    then because of your system you will get people up there who are in it for money and self interest. Take away the money factor, and you get people up there who genuinely care. Eg. mother teresa. hahah
    Ling says:
    which means we will ve very very little pple on top which screws up our only resource which is pple.
    Ling says:
    i totally agree with u tat to do a job well, u need interest in the job also. But fact of life in SG is tat we need money to survive and tat we can’t survive just on interest alone.
    mathia says:
    that’s what you’ve been brain washed to think because it justifies the ministers having the highest pay in the world
    Ling says:
    oh i dun mean tat
    Ling says:
    but in current SG system, no matter the belief. No Money No Talk… =(
    Ling says:
    if i dun ve a job now, the first thing on my mind would be to find another job. Passion, Interest cannot fill my stomach.
    Ling says:
    tat’s how it is in SG now for a working adult…
    mathia says:
    my ideal tax structure:

    Ultra tax the top income
    Increase GST
    Reduce corporate tax
    Give tax incentives for hiring local
    Use tax to top up the bottom income
    Ling says:
    yes good good tax structure
    Ling says:
    i agree tat Top income should be tax more… but across the board, i feel tat tax rate need to be increase. not just top income
    Ling says:
    but top income should be tax more.
    mathia says:
    the across the board tax is based on GST
    Ling says:
    hmm… i think still better not to increase GST…
    mathia says:
    GST taxes disposable income
    Ling says:
    human beings very weird… u ve less money to spend nvm, but if the thing tat u wan to buy, price increase, u will think twice
    mathia says:
    income tax affects both disposable and nondisposable income
    Ling says:
    ya but if u increase GST = increase price of the item will give a pyscology effect tat cause pple to be cautious when buying
    Ling says:
    but reducing their pay in the form of higher tax doesn’t do tat
    mathia says:
    that is only during the implementation phase
    mathia says:
    then you are taxing people who cannot afford to pay tax too
    mathia says:
    gst is self-regulatory
    mathia says:
    you pay tax on what you can afford to spend only
    mathia says:
    money you cannot afford to spend you keep
    mathia says:
    income tax, whether you can afford or not must pay
    mathia says:
    unless you are ultra rich
    Ling says:
    my point is this “you pay tax on what you can afford to spend only”
    Ling says:
    by increasing the price of the item, it gives a effect tat cause pple to stop buying
    mathia says:
    only during the transition
    Ling says:
    dun u realise y during Discount Seasons always so many shoppers?
    mathia says:
    people always get used to it
    Ling says:
    becoz they percive tat things r cheaper although their disposable income never increase
    Ling says:
    it’s the same thing if reversed
    Ling says:
    yes u r right tat maybe pple will get use to it
    mathia says:
    of course we will………. we always have…………
    Ling says:
    lol
    Ling says:
    true true… so sad right~
    mathia says:
    then give you a gst off set package lor
    mathia says:
    hahahha

  3. [...] Minimum Wage – Mathia Lee: Minimum wage should come from taxpayers, not businesses [...]

  4. Kway Teow Man said, on December 18, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    Think harder.

    You are right to try to think like business people, but you’re not thinking hard enough.

    Imagine you’re a businessman and you know that the Govt would top up the pay for your worker to some amount X, how much would you pay the worker? Probably delta – and your tax payers will end up paying X-delta. In case you dunno how much delta is, refer to your calculus text for proofs of differentiation. :-P

  5. mathialee said, on December 18, 2008 at 11:53 pm

    Hi Kway Teow Man, I love your question! OOO i love any mental challenge…hahah

    I’m thinking that since the Govt is the one topping up, the Govt would have a lot of incentive to keep delta as high as possible, but without being so high it chases businesses away (ie. The Optimum Wage). The Govt is really the strongest pressure point for businesses in Singapore, since they approve licenses, etc. ( Consumers are another pressure point for businesses, but they’re a force for driving wages downwards since they want goods as cheap as possible)

    Without the govt making this top up, there really is no incentive for the govt to pressure businesses to pay higher wages. As for mandating a minimum wage to be borne solely by businesses, I’m concerned it will have to be beyond the Optimum Wage, thus driving businesses out of the country. Either that or businesses pass the cost back to the customer, thus driving up prices in general, and the minimum wage would no loner be able to provide the poor a decent life anymore.

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  7. Amused said, on December 19, 2008 at 11:25 am

    Here is another way of viewing the analogy:

    Lousy player: I will stay out of the game if you share your winnings with me. Else, I will insist that I join your team and lower your chance of winning.

    I don’t know about you, but I’d call this extortion.

    By the way, if you have to pay GST on basic needs such as food, it is equivalent to a portion of income tax, which is bigger for people with lower income. Nobody can live not buying food in Singapore.

    Simple numbers in the current system, with 20% GST.

    Person A earning $40000 p.a., spends $300 monthly on food.
    He would pay $720 in income tax, and $720 in GST.

    Person B earning $30000 p.a, spends $225 monthly on food (proportional reduction).
    He would pay $280 in income tax, and $540 in GST.

    You can see that person B’s tax obligations has increased by 200% as compared to person A’s 100% (even though he earns less and spends less). Person A’s now paying a total of 3.6% (up from 1.8%) of his gross income as tax, while Person B’s paying 2.73% (up from 0.93%).

    With their income neither of them can be categorized under “poor”, and hence would not benefit from the proposed handouts.

  8. mathialee said, on December 19, 2008 at 5:31 pm

    hmmm……… i have to agree with you on that………….

    what do you think is a good alternative?

  9. mathialee said, on December 20, 2008 at 10:13 am

    hmmm This morning I woke up and thought :

    What incentive is there for the person to work towards increasing his drawn salary from what he is getting to the level it is being topped up to?

    ie. if he gets $600, an is being topped up to $1000, what is his incentive for getting that promotion to make his salary $800, $900, $1000. Its even worse if, in his line of work, the highest level he could possibly reach is paid only $1000

  10. cr0n said, on December 21, 2008 at 1:25 pm

    While you make sound points in your argument, have you considered the practical aspects of it? i.e. the corporate and personal tax rates in singapore. Otherwise, a discussion of GST is merely conclusive of the fact that the GST is a regressive tax that does not help the poor at all.

  11. chantalsaunders said, on October 25, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    The reason why there must be a minimum wage is because not having one creates an open door for slavery. Businesses have done lots of damage because they haven’t be properly regulated environmentally and otherwise, the cost of needing people to help you make money should at the very least be within the range of survival for the employee!


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