I think Dr Thio Su Mien might be Bi-Sexual , and Blasphemous
Thio might be Bi-sexual
i really wonder if Dr Thio Su Mien realises the implications of her beliefs.
Based on her claims that homosexuality is a CHOICE, and so homosexual people can CHANGE, it follows too, that Heterosexual people can choose and change — and be externally influenced to turn gay.
You know what that means? That means Dr Thio is saying everyone’s a bisexual , having the potential to be attracted to both male and female. And so as bisexuals we can choose and pick either male or female lovers, but that from a religious perspective we ought to pick the opposite sex as lovers.
So what does that say about Dr Thio herself? ; )
Make sense?
And meaning that Dr Thio agrees with Alfred Kinsey’s theory.
Alfred Kinsey rated the degree of sexual orientation in humans on a scale of 0 to 6 – 0 for strictly homosexual and 6 for strictly heterosexual (Kinsey, 1948). From 1 to 5, the frequency of homosexual encounters as compared to heterosexual encounters, fall. He found that while only 4% of the American male population fell into category 0, about one in three males had sexual experiences with another male, leading to orgasm.
When I was in the university, I was intrigued with this question. Does homosexual behavior actually confer an advantage on an individual in certain environments? This is often hard to imagine as the persistence of homosexuality defies the central dogma of natural selection: the continuance of individuals with traits that enable maximum reproductivity of viable offspring so that their genes would be represented in future generations. So I did some research, and wrote this paper:
http://www.geocities.com/mathia_lee_yu_chun/EvolutionHomosexuality.pdf
Anyway, that question only makes sense if homosexuality indeed had a genetic/biological component. So that’s what I set out to determine first. And I’m convinced. I’ve put down the evidence for it in the first part of the paper.
What’s really fascinating is this:
Homosexual behaviour has been observed in more than 450 kinds of animals, across every major animal group, across every major geographic location. Mammals such as lions, mountain sheep, bats, dolphins, even primates engage in erotic same-sex grooming and rubbing against each other. Birds beak peck, macaques stimulate each other’s genitals, African elephants engage in erotic fights. In these encounters, the animals are visibly sexually aroused and in many cases copulate with their same-sex partner. There are also birds that build nests and raise young with same-sex sexual partners, animals who practice same sex courtship, pairbonding and others, like chimpanzees, who form communal groups where sexual activity takes place promiscuously, both in homosexual and heterosexual forms. In many animals such as deer, elephants, goats, homosexual behavior is widely practiced out of the breeding season and they switch to reproductive heterosexual behaviour during the breeding season.
In fruitflies where there’re no ethical issues with doing genetic experiments on them, a genetic component of homosexuality is arguably elucidated. ( Type in “Drosophila homosexuality” at http://www.pubmed.com )
So much for homosexuality being UNNATURAL eh?
Thio and Blasphemy
Another thing about Dr Thio Su Mien and the people like her: I don’t think they realise it, but they’re being downright blasphemous — by the Christian definition!!!
What do I mean?
I think it’s safe to say that Christians would agree we can’t understand God, can’t understand God’s thoughts and God’s wants. Not fully anyway. How does one ever know that you have got your interpretation and understanding of God’s word absolutely spot on correct, when all the theologians are still arguing till the cows come home (See Endnote #1, 2)?
And I think Christians would also agree that judgement is something humans shouldn’t be doing, but should be the prerogative of God only (See Endnote #3).
When people like Dr Thio invoke God’s name and God’s WILL, they are really presuming that
1. They actually know and understand God (oh the arrogance!)
2. They have the right to act on behalf of God in meting out and imposing God’s judgment (playing God!)
That’s just blasphemous! (But of course, I might be wrong too ; ) )
I was really sad to hear what one pastor friend of mine told me. He said that he knew many pastors actually are very pro-homosexual rights and even have doubts on interpreting the bible to mean than homosexuality was wrong. However, most churches are afraid to take that stand because they don’t want to be outcasts, they don’t want the backlash from their parishes. And so most pastors also won’t take this stand publically because they wanted to keep their jobs. So in public, most pastors would still repeat the part about homosexuality being wrong, and only confess otherwise in private conversation.
I understand why they are pressured to do so, but it makes me sad. It also makes me sad to hear not a single official Christian voice (as private indv there are many, but no CHURCH has made a stand) , or the National Council of Churches making a statement about this whole AWARE saga. At least say something about how we should put forth our views in civil society!
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EndNote
#1
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.” Isaiah 55:9 ; Then Job replied to the LORD : “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. Job 42: 1 – 3
#2
(A pastor of a conservative church with postgrad theology degree helped me with this):
The sin of Sodom is usually taken to be that of homosexuality (Sodomy)
But if you read the interpretation of it here, you’ll realise what it was:
Ezekiel 16 : 49-50
“Sodom’s sin were pride, laziness, and gluttony, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door. She was proud and did loathsome things, so I wiped her out, as you have seen”
#3
It always strikes me, how people selectively read and enforce the Bible:
Romans (Remember that the authors of the biblical books did NOT write with the chapters in place. They were continuous letters; the chaptering was done in later centuries for easy referencing only):
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance? (Did anyone read on to this part?!?! Why are they passing and imposing judgement?)
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[...] I think Dr Thio Su Mien might be Bi-Sexual , and Blasphemous [...]
[...] But The Space For Diversity – The Bosonic State: The Problem with the New AWARE EXCO – Mathia Lee: I think Dr Thio Su Mien might be Bi-Sexual , and Blasphemous – Sam’s thoughts: Thank you, Mrs Jean Tan – Anders Brink: I disagree with my editor, [...]
quoting from YB’s article
” there’s even a gay-affirmative Christian church here in Singapore, and Reverend Yap Kim Hao, the former head of the Methodist Church, has been outspoken in his support for gay equality.”
source: http://yawningbread.org/arch_2009/yax-1010.htm
==
I just don’t like it when people feel like they have the divine right to oppress people.
I have commented in your some earlier blogs, not sure if it was yours, that who is Thio SM to pass judgement, unless she thinks she is God Almighty herself. Judgement is reserved for God on Judgement Day.
Well it is bovious how arrogant she is… trying to tell the who world at the press conference about who she is? To reiterarate, this world will be a better place without suc an arrongant, self righteous bitch..
Her obsession with homosexuality contrary to the biblical focus of Christ and His ministry, is unnatural and perhaps points to other motivation such as relatives being not straight hence the need to constantly rationalise her inward struggle.
I have friends from (Church of Our saviour) COOS, whom I found out were literally kissing each other in public even though they were girls. They don’t need to go each week to COOS to reaffirmed that what they are doing was wrong and to ask for forgiveness.
Hi Mathia,
I believe the fundies will turn back and say that:
- Man was made in Gods image and animals were not , animals are there just for Man’s consumption (or some such BS). So Man is NOT an animal and the same “natural law” does not apply. You should remember the clash between the Scientific evolutionists and these fundie “Intelligent Design” bunch.
- These people will NEVER listen to any rational, scientific, facts based argument. I did discuss (‘argue’) with some of these types (but that was on Biological Evolution) and came away thinking that these are lost nut cases. Don’t waste my time with them. Oh, BTW, one of the fundie was a business man in IT and another was a PhD in Science.
- I saw a reference that the COOS is related to the Joel’s Army. Any idea what that implies?
I am actually saddened to see more and more singaporeans turning into fully brainwashed fundies. Very scary.
So Thios Su Mien’s daughter Thio Li Ann (close to 45?) is still taking her time to *choose* her sexual partner to be female or male?
I hope she chooses the former
The problem arises too as some of these fundies still believe that the bible is infallible and the unerring word of “God”.
The truth is that the bible is a book of many man’s interpretations or what they think “God” inspired them to write based on their own interpretations.
Bitch Thio and her cronies will just interpret and quote what they think is morally correct from the bible to support their many beliefs.
“I have friends from (Church of Our saviour) COOS, whom I found out were literally kissing each other in public even though they were girls. They don’t need to go each week to COOS to reaffirmed that what they are doing was wrong and to ask for forgiveness.”
There is nothing wrong with girls kissing girls. There is nothing wrong with guys kissing guys. Nor is there anything wrong with guys kissing girls.
there is nothing wrong with loving another person.
But it is wrong to have intolerance towards another person because of his sexuality. That would be BIGOTRY.
Some questions…
1) You’ve pointed out in your article that “…a large majority of studies are fraught with problems, the most common being an observer bias…”. At the same time, your citation index includes a number of peer-reviewed(?) articles. How would you rate your information sources then? Are all of them impartial?
2) How do you explain the double standards (i.e. OK with other people being homosexuals, BUT not their own children) exhibited by non-christians? Probably most non-christian parents have this double standard, and it is quite obvious that religion has no part in this.
NB: My reference point is the baby boomers buddhists/taoists/free-thinkers auntie and uncle heartlanders.
3) You’ve mentioned in your article that you have “…established the occurence of HS as an inheritable trait…” and “…in many animals…HS behavior is widely practiced out of the breeding season and they switch to reproductive heterosexual behavior during the breeding season”.
a) This suggest that many animals are genetically(?) bisexual?
b) Perhaps also suggesting that human beings are genetically bisexual too? Erm… Then Thio SM is right that homosexuality is a choice (?because we are born bisexual?)?
4) This is philosophical, but none the less important…… Let me bring in an example, the psychopath brain. The psychopath brain is structurally different (evidence from MRI), it cannot feel empathy, it does not feel guilt. How then do we deal with a psychopath? When he commits a crime (as defined by society), he does not feel guilty, he does not feel that he has done any wrong (even if it means killing/stealing). He can’t help it right? He is born like that. To lock him up is to discriminate against him. To let him loose is detrimental to society. In order to let him move freely, society (still discriminate) “brainwash” him with definitions of what is right and wrong – concepts which he probably will never understand but simply memorize by hard.
Assuming homosexuality is all genetic (i.e. homosexuality is not a choice). If you, a person (regardless of sexuality) who can feel empathy and guilt, agree with the above doing to a psychopath. Yet, you disagree with those who condemn homosexuality. Aren’t you “condeming yourself, because you who pass judgement do the same things”?
5) Another philosophical one…… Given how cultures change and societal values come and go throughout thousands of years of human history, is it so painful for:
a) anti-homosexuals to give equality (i.e. on the IC, instead of M/F, you put H or B) to homosexuals/bisexuals?
b) pro-homosexuals to accept “societal eugenics” and the extinction of homosexuals/bisexuals?
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I think there is a fine line between being judgemental and trying to differentiate right/wrong. Often, we cross the line without knowing it.
Isn’t it obvious that some statements here are judgemental on Thio SM?
If you can pass judgement on Thio SM on a blog, then why complain when she pass her own judgement publicly?
Take a poll on “Do you think the AWARE old guard and media is making an issue out of Christianity?”
Do you think the AWARE new guard is promoting Christianity?
Please see my views at http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
I’m not christian, I’m atheist, so I’m not being hypocritical when I say the whole lot of them are batshit crazy. there are just singapore’s version of the westboro baptist church
read nathan phelps’s interview. (one son who left that church and became atheist)
http://atheistnexus.org/page/nate-phelps-2009-aa-speech
But the heart of Calvinism is the doctrine of absolute predestination, which posits that in the council halls of eternity past, an omniscient and omnipotent god preordained who would be saved, and who would be damned. Mankind would have no say or choice in this, since they are dead in their trespasses and sin. If you are selected you gain eternal life. If you lose, you suffer the most extreme physical and mental anguish forever. My father has simply refined Calvin’s doctrine to the point where the vast majority of us are going to hell. And he and his followers are among the privileged few chosen by God.
This doctrine is very important to understanding the Westboro Baptist Church. My father, and those who follow him, are not preaching to try to convince people of their truth. Unlike street evangelists, who are trying to convert people, my father has no intention of converting anyone, since conversion is impossible. You’re either chosen, or you’re not. To illustrate, in the mid 90’s my father was a guest on a radio talk show hosted by a popular Christian apologist named Rich Buehler. Mr. Buehler suggested that my father’s failure at bearing any fruit from his evangelizing efforts might point to some error in his theology. With typical aggression my father barked back at him: “That’s not the test!! The test is fidelity in preaching!”
—
AND THAT I think is what the thio’s and their ilk are about.
Just to add to my question (2). It’s really interesting.
Really curious to know how people of other religions and free-thinkers think about this issue too. And why so many are double standards.
I was reading an online article (http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html) about jewish interpretations of homosexuals. The whole article may be crap for all you know, but it really is quite interesting and comprehensive, so I’m speculatively convincing myself that it’s a good article. Haha.
Given that intepretation of the Hebrew Bible will automatically influence the interpretation of the translated Christian Bible, it’s really worth a look.
It’s a really long article, so I will just give a summary of some interesting points.
1) The translation (Hebrew to English) of the Christian Bible is not perfect. There are still a number of Hebrew words labelled UNKNOWN. So better be careful quoting the English version… And since some of the Hebrew meanings are unknown even to scholars, God help you lah!
NB: I read this somewhere, either in this article or some other article I opened side by side. Can’t remember!
2) The Five Book of Moses had absolutely nothing to say concerning homosexuality as we define it in today’s world! The forbidden “homosexuality” during those times possibly referred to a heterosexual man substituting a woman with a man for sex.
3) Possibly… “Homosexuality” was prohibited only to Israel (i.e. Jews), residing in the Holy Land and only amongst males. So lesbianism is OK. If you are not Jew or living outside the Holy Land, homosexuality is OK too!
Another Rabbi pointed out that the “homosexuality” in the Hebrew Bible has more to do with idolatry than what we define in the modern context.
4) There is some consensus that anal sex is not allowed, regardless of sexuality.
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pressparliament/pressreleases2009/statement.aspx
2009 press release
The Royal College shares the concern of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association that positions espoused by bodies like the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) in the United States are not supported by science. There is no sound scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Furthermore so-called treatments of homosexuality as recommended by NARTH create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.
The Royal College of Psychiatrists holds the view that lesbian, gay and bisexual people should be regarded as valued members of society who have exactly similar rights and responsibilities as all other citizens. This includes equal access to health care, the rights and responsibilities involved in a civil partnership, the rights and responsibilities involved in procreating and bringing up children, freedom to practice a religion as a lay person or religious leader, freedom from harassment or discrimination in any sphere and a right to protection from therapies that are potentially damaging, particularly those that purport to change sexual orientation.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association concluded there was no scientific evidence that homosexuality was a disorder and removed it from its diagnostic glossary of mental disorders. The International Classification of Diseases of the World Health Organisation followed suit in 1992
Going to add another question. It’s related to (2), which I’m particularly interested now.
Interestingly, nobody seem to be addressing that issue. Is it that difficult?
People are citing press releases, websites after websites, scrutinizing details of statements made by Thio and company… Wow… So much details!
Here’s the question – Is discrimination against homosexuals/bisexuals an instinctive behavior?
Here’s some numbers I kapo from wikipedia… In Singapore, Buddhism is the largest religion at 42.5% of the resident population, while Christianity is only at 14.6%. Taoism is at 8.5% and No-Religious-Affiliation is at 14.8%.
Last I heard, Buddhism and Taoism do not have any anti-homosexual doctrine.
Why is there such a term as a “conservative majority” in Singapore? Does this mean that non-christians discriminate against homosexuals as well (My observation is that they either outright disciminate or practice double standards, which is also a form of discrimination)? If not religion, on what basis is their discrimination then?
If this is instinctive behavior, then it’s in our genes. Is that really the case?
I have no answers, but those who are anti-discriminatory better have some… If not, then there will not be any progress in this issue (read – government will maintain status quo). This is now beyond religion.
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>>If not religion, on what basis is their discrimination then?
It’s simply cultural, Traditional Asian Family Values. People with TAFV need not have read a word of scriptures from any major faith. It’s just something they’re familiar with. ‘You just cannot be a homosexual, you’ll bring dishonour to the family.’ Or, a decade or two ago, ‘If you don’t study hard, you’ll be like that poly student instead of going to the Uni’ This sort of discrimination can be the result of intentional social engineering and has got nothing to do with faith.
How to handle this? From psychology, we know of a few ways.. one of which is to have more contact with different groups of people etc. People who descriminate homosexuals may not have seen a single homosexual person in their lives, for eg. But if they know of even one homosexual person who doesn’t fit the stereotype, perceptions can improve a lot.
I think it can be instinctive (robbers cave study), or learnt (‘You have to learn to hate!’~Hitler)
I would like to ask that everyone should not write-off the fundies. Just as they were indoctrinated, it is in everyone’s best interest to continue engaging them so that some might moderate their views. Now in the US, the anti-gay movement is being forced into a corner and you are beginning to see them delving into outright bigotry, lying and general nuttiness. They will lose their anti-gay crusade because many of their flock, especially younger evangelicals, just do not agree with their POV. Don’t write them off– you are better off winning even a small group of allies. ~On a related note, as the anti-gay movement subsides, a new monster will emerge. The fundies will find a new pet cause and target another minority. Gotta stream in the money, right? Just remember not to buy into that hate.
You sure do know your Bible, and you sure know how turn Scriptures round on its head just to suit your arguments….sometihing you cannot change is biology. No matter how you argue it, the human body has anatomical parts for specific purposes. Of course, you can (ab)use it for such unintended purpose like “sticking a straw up one’s nose”…. I think there is enough medical evidence that this leads to serious problems in the long run … So, call nature discriminatory? Bigoted? You eat with your eyes and smell with your mouth? And why is there male and female if one can do without the other! hmm … I don’t know who the misguided folks are.
Angie:
Biology was never the basis for morality — that would be weak at best and dangerous at worst
If biology were the basis for morality, then adultery would be morally permissible behavior, since the anatomical parts are used for its “specific purpose”.
If biology were the basis for morality, then riding bicycles would be morally impermissible behavior. I don’t think human legs were designed/evolved/etc for the “specific purpose” of riding bicycles were they?
“I think there is enough medical evidence that this leads to serious problems in the long run ”
riding bicyles can also lead to serious knee cartilage problems in the long run
“You sure do know your Bible, and you sure know how turn Scriptures round on its head just to suit your arguments”
That’s what the catholics, protestants, liberals, mormons, nazis etc etc have been doing……………….
Bored… Here’s some words for the fun of it. Also to demostrate the pointlessness of arguments without insufficient thought.
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“riding bicyles can also lead to serious knee cartilage problems in the long run”
As a matter of fact, bicycles offer a more efficient use of energy per distance covered.
This means that for the same distance covered by walking, there is less knee cartilage wear and tear if you cycle.
Why don’t you say that walking/running can lead to serious knee cartilage problems in the long run? We see even more of it happening.
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“You sure do know your Bible, and you sure know how turn Scriptures round on its head just to suit your arguments”
That’s what the catholics, protestants, liberals, mormons, nazis etc etc have been doing……………….
Everybody is doing that, so it makes for fair game.
Even the devil knows the Scriptures, and probably he is doing that too!