Mathia Lee ~ Plans and Preoccupations

Speaking up for the marginalised

Posted in Social Commentary by mathialee on December 1, 2009

Perhaps I was a little harsh & did not explain myself clearly in my previous post on the 2 points I disagreed with Dr Chew about (nothing against him, I’m sure he’s a nice man, but he’s human too, with 2 views I disagree with) . So now i’ve taken sometime to elaborate, in reply to a couple of comments. Thought I’ll post it up here too.

 

 

On speaking up on disturbing teachings
Indeed, I think the listeners need to listen & discern & think critically. I think in reality, the church is made up of a great diversity of people. People who enjoy thinking and researching and questioning. People who have great amounts of respect and trust in their church leaders who have spent years at theological school. People who are incredibly psychologically and emotionally vulnerable and searching for salvation. People who are deeply insecure and looking for someone to love and accept them, and finding that in God. Because of this diversity, there will always be people who will be receptive to any message at all. Thus the responsibility of the person who teaches (James 3:1)

 

That said, every teacher, no matter how good, will not be perfect. Sometimes we don’t realise it until someone points it out to us. And so I think it is equally important for us to voice out teachings we are disturbed by, while of course, being aware we could ourselves be wrong too.

This was also why I was deeply impressed with Dr Gwee’s writing during the AWARE saga, when he pointed out to everyone, what he perceived was right and wrong, and how so many of us benefited from his writing as a result.
Martin Luther started the Reformation , not by staying silent or simply moving to another church. He wrote and spoke. He had no blog, but he nailed his 95 Theses to the door.
Jesus did not stay silent; He spoke up when he felt the leaders were teaching things outside of what the Scripture talked about.

 

I think all of us need to do the same, because a lot of times, many others have the same doubts but fear to voice out. When one person starts the conversation going, we may find that we are carrying burdens we don’t have to.

 

On non-traditional families, and on procreation

Indeed I believe the Bible affirms our desire to have children & considers it a blessing to have children, through it’s oft-qouted Genesis teachings.

I would applaud any preacher who quotes those verses, and affirms the listener’s desire for having a family. However, “the danger is that the mainstream population, its socio-cultural norms and ethos, will dwindle and diminish down the generations.” is not a Biblical principle. It’s all fine  only if  a preacher makes clear when he is presenting his own views,  and when he is speaking from the Bible. It’s easy for listeners to be confused, if it is all said while he stands in the pulpit.

 

It would be even more wonderful, if the preacher also called on Christians to support each other through encouragement, through helping one another with family needs, through helping poor families provide better for their families. Because families are a blessing from God.

 

But to ignore Paul’s affirmation of singlehood, and to use those verses to make people feel less worthy or contributive because they are single/divorced parents, or choose to be childless, is unacceptable, IMO.

 

Why?

 

Think about how a woman who has an accidental pregnancy, decided to heed the Church’s teachings & keep the baby instead of aborting it, and doing her best to then raise this child, despite the prejudice and lack of govt support. How would she feel, after heeding the teachings of the church, to have the country’s Church leader then tell her that people like her are causing the decline of morals in the West?

 

Think about how a man who desperately tried to save his marriage but who’s unfaithful wife walked out anyway, abandoning his children, and how he tries his best to raise them not to hate their mother, only to have the Church leader turn around and tell him that divorce people like him are causing the moral decline?

 

Think about the woman who decides to remain single and childless because she has 2 aged parents and 4 grandparents still alive, to take care of, so that her brother can have more for his own children. How would she feel to have people tell her that she is disobeying Biblical commands to have children and that she was sinning because the decline in birth rate is going to erode social norms?

 

Think of the homosexual person, who decided that his pastor’s Biblical interpretation was right and homosexuality wrong, and so decided to remain single his whole life, rather than being in a gay relationship — which would piss off God supposedly, or being in a straight relationship — which would piss off his wife. How would he feel, after making this decision for the love of God, to have the church leader imply that people like him were contributing to “the danger that the mainstream population, its socio-cultural norms and ethos, will dwindle and diminish down the generations.”

 

These people may be in the minority, they may be in the fringe, they may often be overlooked
But I hope people remember also that the Bible talks about how God values even a singular person.

 

 

Proverbs 31:
8 “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves,
for the rights of all who are destitute.

9 Speak up and judge fairly;
defend the rights of the poor and needy.”

47 Responses

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  1. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 1:48 am

    i think it is so important that every Christian who disagrees ought to say that out loud. As head of the Nat’l Council of Churches, he represents all the Christian’s views to the govt and to the country. People represented by him have the mandate to take issue.

  2. Anonymous said, on December 1, 2009 at 2:50 am

    i feel this is important enough to be copied over from solo bear’s forum:

    Anyone remember that AWARE’s Comprehensive Sex Education (CSE) teaches our budding teens that oral sex is safe and acceptable?

    Oral cancers in women rising, HPV sometimes a factor

    About 34,000 new U.S. cases of oral cancer are diagnosed each year, and the numbers are rising, according to the Oral Cancer Foundation. Although oral cancer has primarily been a man’s illness, affecting six men for every woman, the foundation says that over the past 10 years, that ratio has become two men to each woman.

    The foundation attributes the rise to the increase in the number of women who smoke and drink excessively, because both tobacco and alcohol trigger oral cancer.

    But there is another factor. In some cases, women are being found to have oral cancer caused by HPV, or the human papillomavirus (version 16). Different versions of HPV are present in most cases of cervical cancer. Like cervical cancer, in oral cancer cases, the virus is transferred through sexual activity.

    Folsom was shocked when she heard her cancer contained HPV cells.

    “I said, ‘What? How is that possible?’ ” she exclaimed. “But doctors told me that it might have been caused by something I did, years and years ago. It could actually show up later and cause the cancer.”

    HPV causes irregular cells to multiply, The virus thrives in a moist, dark environment, said Dr. Youssef Obeid, a prosthodontist and director of Obeid Dental in Bethesda, Maryland. Prosthodontists specialize in tooth replacement, jaw restructuring, disease and injuries to the mouth. “The mouth is a perfect place for it to grow.” By transferring the virus during oral sex, it stays in the mouth and causes lesions. Many eventually turn cancerous.

    Oh, yes, Mathia likes to remind people that she’s a CSE trainer.

    Any comments, Mathia?

    Please share with us how AWARE is going to reposition itself on this issue?

    As well as take responsibility for the irresponsible messages taught to our teens, under the noses of their unsuspecting parents?

    Or are you going to just keep telling the kids that it is okay to experiment because it feels good?

    Thanks.

  3. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Anonymous: Off topic completely, and total misrepresentation.

    Misrepresentation : “(CSE) teaches our budding teens that oral sex is safe and acceptable”

    Fact: Oral sex can transmit STIs as well (as anonymous has kindly provided evidence for) , and hence condoms or dental dams should be used. The fact is that STIs due to oral transmission are on the rise because of the misconception that protection needs to be used only for anal and vaginal sex, but that oral sex is safe.

    Fact: Some symptoms do take years to show up, so it might have been something contracted from years ago, and not from your new partner or something you did recently

    Fact: Cancers caused by HPV —- and any other cancer —– has a better prognosis when discovered early, so regular screening, or proper attention to any body leisions or pain, would help.

  4. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 10:34 am

    Straits Times
    ST Forum
    Dec 1, 2009
    Respect those outside traditional family

    I REFER to yesterday’s report, ‘Unite against alternative values, Anglicans urged’. Do people actually marry in the belief they will be divorced some years down the road? Who chooses deliberately to be a single mother? Who wants to be a homosexual and be vilified as an enemy of ‘mainstream values’?

    For many divorcees, ending the marriage is the only way to continue to lead a fulfilling life. In many such cases, love and support from family members and friends are precisely what is needed to get them through difficult times.

    A single mother often needs the help of her extended family and friends to raise her children. Love for a child born out of wedlock is no less than that for one born within the ‘classical’ family structure.

    The gay man can be a filial son, a loving uncle, a steadfast friend, a doting godfather and an accommodating colleague.

    If there is to be any consensus on ‘mainstream values’, it must be built on respect, empathy, compassion and tolerance. The family should reflect such values and not be used to draw divisive lines.

    Harvey Neo

  5. [...] original post here: Speaking up for the marginalised « Mathia Lee ~ Plans and … Categories: Object, Speaking Tags: all-fine, all-said, comic-relief, david-caldwell, golf-one, [...]

  6. joelee said, on December 1, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Mathia,

    Are you against pre-marital sex between concenting adults? Why?

  7. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 2:25 pm

    Hi Joelee

    Nope, in no way at all. How did you come to that conclusion? just wondering, cos i might want to clarify/rephrase if i’ve not done so properly. Thanks for the feedback

  8. Anonymous said, on December 1, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Another of Mathia’s distortions (and a lie to the trusting and gullible):

    “8. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 1:29 am

    “Remember, the Archbishop is addressing his flock, in the church. Not you in your playground.”

    As one who has writen “Christian” in all the forms i’ve filled for 30 years, I have a right and responsibility to take issue with the person who represents me to the govt and to the people —- in this case, the tepresentative being the head of the National Council of Churches.
    I think everyone should exercise this right and responsibility too.

    (http://mathialee.wordpress.com/2009/11/30/non-biblical-preaching-from-the-pulpit/)

    Distortion/lie – that the Archbishop was speaking on behalf of all Christians and representing her to government, people etc.

    Truth – the Archbishop was preaching from the pulpit, teaching his congregation about the Christian faith.

    As spiritual leader, he is the messenger/appointed spokesperson for God. He is responsible for guiding his flock in the ways of God.

    He is not speaking on behalf of and has not claimed to speak for all Christians.

    Does Mathia not know there is a difference between God and believers?

    Or is this confusion created on purpose to incite the ‘blur but brash’ against the spiritual leader and the church?

    “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for TEACHING, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for TRAINING in righteousness;”

    2 Timothy 3:16

    How does Mathia expect him to do that if he is not even allowed to convey a biblical instruction to be fruitful and multiply?

  9. [...] See the original post here: Speaking up for the marginalised « Mathia Lee ~ Plans and … [...]

  10. Joe Lee said, on December 1, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Mathia,

    You have not mis-phrase anything – I just remember that you’re Christian right? But you don’t seem to accept what are widely accepted as Christian values. I’m not a Christian but I see great wisdom & benefits in what is thought. Of course when needed the Church has to be sympathetic and kind to gay men, single mothers,….also adulterers, womanisers. But that is different from promoting the right values.

    Actually the answer lies in Harvey Neo’s questions:

    “Do people actually marry in the belief they will be divorced some years down the road? Who chooses deliberately to be a single mother? Who wants to be a homosexual and be vilified as an enemy of ‘mainstream values’?”

    Who wants to be homosexuals and be vilified? Homosexuals love sex, they are very promiscuous and I think there is some wisdom to discourage people from being homosexuals. The counter argument is that this inclination is inborn. It is like saying it is okay to be promiscuous because you’re born with a lot of sex drive. If I believe that I will be in a pub right now instead of in front of a keyboard. I think churches got it right by saying homosexuality is wrong. I say this from my personal observation of gay friends and their lifestyle. I may think being gay is okay after all a number of my friends are gay. However, as a religion that seeks to bring happiness to believers, guides them in their life…you can expect them to promote values that result in better outcomes.

    “Who chooses deliberately to be a single mother?” Nobody I know except Maia Lee. What leads to single parenthood? Very often pre-marital sex. That is why it is wise for Churches to say it is wrong to avoid all the problems down the road. Pre-marital sex + condoms? From personal experience doesn’t work leh, when things get really hot cannot stop. Better to avoid the situation all together….go to church and refresh the resolve to avoid premarital sex.

  11. PW said, on December 1, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    To Anonymous said, on December 1, 2009 at 2:50 am,

    You are assuming that only lesbians have oral sex and so oral cancer from oral sex must all be attributed to gay sex. The fact is that many heterosexual couples have oral sex as well. Your logic just doesn’t hold.

  12. Trevor said, on December 1, 2009 at 10:30 pm

    “However, as a religion that seeks to bring happiness to believers, guides them in their life…you can expect them to promote values that result in better outcomes.”

    That is why gays get discriminated.

    gay lifestyle = inferior

    ANY other str8 lifestyle = superior

  13. JustMe said, on December 1, 2009 at 10:36 pm

    Joe Lee, I’m in my 30s, single, never had sex, and gay.

    I am a Christian, but left my church because the pastor preached about “casting out the evil of homosexuality”.

    Homosexuals don’t love sex. People do. Homosexuals seem promiscuous because there are only so many people they can partner with. Heterosexuals visit brothels and have one-night stands but that’s okay.

    For you to judge all homosexuals simply by observing a few of your friends is self-righteous and plain wrong.

    The gays you see are no different from the many straight male and female “party animals”. There are many more gays in hiding (myself including) who keep our sexuality a secret for fear of reprisals from people like you.

    One of your relatives could be gay. So could a perfectly normal looking and behaving guy next door. Gays after all are humans too, made by God.

    I did not choose to be gay. I did not ask to be condemned to a lonely life, forever to be unmarried and childless.

    There is nothing attractive or sexy about being gay. Anyone who willing chooses to be castigated as such cannot possibly be sane. Don’t pretend you know gays because you are not one and will never understand what it is like to be one.

    Preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality.

  14. mathialee said, on December 1, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    I really like that “Preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality.”

    While i think that promiscuity (if with responsible protection) is a valid lifestyle choice between consenting non-believers, I think amongst the religious people, that’s exactly the message they should be preaching “Preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality.”

  15. JoeLee said, on December 2, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Mathia Lee,

    That “preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality” is like “smoke but try not to get cancer”. There is a close association of the promiscuous gay lifestyle with being gay – give and take a few exceptions. I tell you why as a non-Christians, my personal experience and observation make me stand on their side on this issue. The high incidence of drug use like poppers at gay spas, springing up of these spas, disproportionate to the size of the gay population, sex crime cases, makes the general population apprehensive plus the far high rates of sexually transmitted diseases among them.

    The govt, once short of economic growth ideas, wanted to promote pink tourism, attract pink dollars, developers to build pink condos faced a backlashed from the public whose concerns are genuine. I have a gay friend who now resides in San Frans near Castro Street. He is my friend and I accept him as a gay person and even visited him there. What they have there in San Francisco, I do not want to have in Singapore and I’m glad the churches have made their stand very clear.

  16. mathialee said, on December 2, 2009 at 9:52 am

    Joe Lee
    I have to beg to differ that “preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality” is like “smoke but try not to get cancer”.
    I would say instead that “preach against promiscuity, not homosexuality” is like “preach against smoking, not having lungs”

    If the close association you perceive between promiscuity, being gay, and STI/crime rates is to lead us to the conclusion that we should then preach against homosexuality, then, following the same logic, we should preach against heterosexuality all the more.

    Because there is a fair higher number of sex trafficking, child sex abuse, rape cases etc that occurs all around the world that were committed or fueled by heterosexual men. These numbers are far higher than the numbers you notice amongst the “undesirable gay lifestyle”. These vices also harm victims to a far graver and unjust extent, because of the violence towards helpless women and children that are involoved.

    so, if [vices & ills committed by homosexuals] = [preach against homosexuality],
    then [ MORE vices & MORE ills committed by heterosexuals] = [preach MORE against heterosexuality] ?????

    But surely, no one would come to the conclusion that due to these crimes on an international scale, we should preach against heterosexual males? No, we preach against rape and violence.

    In the same way, while what you observe does occur, it is not unequivocally linked to homosexuality, and more importantly, cannot be used to justify preaching against homosexuality. What it does say, is that we need to preach against drug use, sexually irresponsible behavior, violence, disrespect and from some religious points of view , we preach against promiscuity too.

    So, if [ vices & ills committed by heterosexuals] = [ preach against vices & ills eg. sex trafficking, rape],
    then [vices & ills committed by homosexuals] = [ preach against vices & ills eg. drug use at gay spas, irresponsible/promiscuious sex]

  17. JoeLee said, on December 2, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Mathia Lee,

    I do see the fight against prostitution, sex crimes, moral erosion etc among the (heterosexual) population in general.

    I don’t see the gay people asking those gay spas to be closed. I don’t see gay people speaking out against that public sex orgy after the last Snowball/Indignation.

    I and many other non-religious Singaporeans would be more ready to accept homosexuality if not for the their morality. You say its 2 different things – I really don’t see it that way.

  18. mathialee said, on December 2, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    JoeLee

    can I clarify with you then, what do you mean by “preaching against homosexuality”?

    Are you calling for these promiscuous homosexual people to “turn straight”?

    And if they “turn straight” they would somehow also suddenly decide to have a wife and kids and stay home every night, simply because a pastor/anyone else asked them too?

    Or are you calling for them to not do drugs at gay spas, not indulge in public sex orgies, but instead remain in faithful relationships with their partner of the same gender?

    Or are you not even addressing gay people, and “preaching against homosexuality” means that you are asking the straight, family-oriented majority to behave in a hostile fashion or cease interaction with gay people?

    I need to understand what you mean by “preach against homosexuality” before I think its fair for me to comment further

  19. Kentz said, on December 2, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Joe Lee

    I like the way you selectively targeted drug type to be emphasized.
    When it comes to drug, there are more heterosexual male and female alike, who take Cocaine, Heroine and even Estacy. But these are hardly news arent they?

    But put gay and ANY vices together, it become sensational news and therefore more effective in promoting whatever causes you may have.

    Wow! nicely put. Speaking like TLA in her parliment speech that Gays are affluent.
    But that the thing you see, when you make broadstroke statements its not a reflection of truth.

    Just like when the massess decided via action of few christian to brand them all self-serving, arrogant and (after aware saga) duplicitous hypocrite.

    Someone once say, when you point a finger at someone, 4 other fingers on your own hand is pointing back at you.

  20. Kentz said, on December 2, 2009 at 3:40 pm

    Joe See

    “I don’t see the gay people asking those gay spas to be closed. I don’t see gay people speaking out against that public sex orgy after the last Snowball/Indignation.”

    Sigh that’s the thing you see, when you want to make this kind of arguement.
    First of all, since morality is not on their side, which you have clearly stated.
    So why would they need to speak out against ‘sex orgy . . . at snowball . . . ‘

    Then again, one can turn around and ask why didnt You say something about annual Zouk Out party? Is it because it’s attend by hetero as well, and sex orgy among heteros is not a ‘big deal’?

    And ‘I don’t see the gay people asking those gay spas to be closed’

    Sigh, this is akin to asking some to judge and decide on action of others.
    If thats the case, similarly i would like to point out this analogy.

    Since you are christian, why didnt you do something about all the child molestation cases commited by the clergymen in Roman Catholics churches?
    Since christianity also include Roman catholics, no?

    When you want to judge and condemn, don’t do so selectively. People might notice the duplicity.

    Sigh . . . .

  21. mathialee said, on December 2, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    I’m quite reminded of this book I read “This Earth of Mankind” by Toer

    The author is an Indonesian and wrote it during his political imprisonment.

    His book was a novel set in post-war Jarkarta, when the Chinese communists were comming into Indonesia.

    One of the characters remarked that Chinese people shouldn’t be allowed because they were disgusting —- they were the only race of people who spat.

    And the other character said, All races have sputum, some of us swallow it back, some of us spit it out. Look instead at the strengths of the chinese see what they’ve accomplished instead.

    (I have paraphrased cos i can’t remember word for word.
    & being Singaporean, I would add on to say that we can also launch an anti-spitting campaign, in addition to looking at their strengths…….. rather than launching a anti-Chinese campaign)

  22. beka said, on December 3, 2009 at 1:44 am

    There is a very eloquent and beautiful post here about how the worst kind of people, who are somehow associated with a minority group, are thought representative of the rest of all that group.

    Religion is much more of a choice than orientation, thankyouverymuch, and yes, for the last time (because so many awesome commenters above have said it already), why does the fact that some queer people are promiscuous mean that all queer people are at fault? Why does the fact that some are mean that all have to apologise?

    Say that you, as a straight person, are sorry that straight people have extramarital sex and do drugs and rape children and built the atom bomb, and then maybe I’ll apologise for… wait, for what, again? So you didn’t do any of those things; so some straight people did, which means that every heterosexual does the same thing and is fair game, right?

    (This is not to diss allies. Again, see above sentence on awesome people. :D )

  23. Trevor said, on December 3, 2009 at 11:21 pm

    “I don’t see gay people speaking out against that public sex orgy after the last Snowball/Indignation.”

    Eh, we cant even have sex. If anyone is to admit it, it WOULD be a criminal offence.
    Would ANY Singaporean do so?!?! If he does, he would be SEOW!!!

    “I and many other non-religious Singaporeans would be more ready to accept homosexuality if not for the their morality.”

    So your morality is the right one lah! Others morality is wrong lah! So that means you are God lah, who has the absolute say on what is right and wrong morality!

  24. mathialee said, on December 3, 2009 at 11:24 pm

    Trevor that’s a great point i totally forgot to raise!

    While the police say they do not persecute gay men, the existance of that law actually makes any education programme illegal. Doubt there’s any local research, but overseas studies have repeatedly shown that the lack of education for sexual health and responsibility directly contributes to STI increased rates.

  25. Henry said, on December 7, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Speaking of disturbing teachings, here’s an audio recording of an American Comprehensive Sex Education (CSE) session:

    Instructor asks 14-year-olds if it is better to spit or swallow during blow jobs

    The instructor is being paid by public taxpayer funds.

    Anyone remember the secret CSE instructor handbook that advocates teaching teens and pre-teens that anal sex is healthy and neutral?

    Anyone care to speculate how those lessons were conducted?

  26. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 10:48 am

    Thank you everyone for trying to give me an education on the matter. I wish to just clarify a few points. I don’t insist that I have the ultimate wisdom on this matter but like many other Singaporeans we have our concerns and unless these are addressed there will be less than widespread acceptance of gay men:

    1. Gay men are closely associated with a certain lifestyle that is promiscuious. I’m not saying every gay man is promiscuous and I don’t even blame gay people for being promiscuous. I was told this explanation by a gay friend why this is so – biologically women have to shoulder the burden of child bearing after sex so they are very selective who they have sex with. Men, gay or straight, are pigs (myself included)….and if we can, like Tiger Woods, would like to have 10 mistresses and get away with it. Because I like sex with women and not men and I don’t have Tiger Woods budget, and women are selective…I’m a pig but constrained by biology and (lack of)wealth so as a ratio there is a lower incidence of promiscuity among straight men.

    2. It is morally wrong to be promiscuous. …at least by Christian standards and societal standards. We can understand why some things become religious values because of the harm it brings to society and families.

    3. We can tell people its okay to be gay but don’t be promiscuous. But that is like telling a teen who is genetically pre-disposed (famiily history) to alcoholism that it is okay to go to the pub to have a few beers but don’t come back drunk.

    My worry is that if there is widespread acceptance, there will be a proliferation of a lifestyle along with it gay pubs, gay bars, gay saunas etc etc. We already have big enough headaches with a small segment of the heterosexual population who cannot behave, why do we want to bring in what we already see in many gay communities in the west…do we want what we see in San Francisco Castro..

  27. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Hi Joe Lee

    I appreciate your concern, but I still don’t quite understand, and hope that you can explain to me, what do you mean by “acceptance” or “non-acceptance”?

    By “not accepting homosexuality”, do you mean that
    1. we should persuade homosexual men to “turn straight” and have a wife and children?
    or
    2. we should persuade homosexual men to be less promiscuous while being in homosexual relationships
    or
    3. we should persuade homosexual men to remain single and celibate all their lives
    or
    4. we should expel homosexual men from singapore
    or
    5. we should fine/jail homosexual men
    or
    6. we should ostracise and exclude and un-friend homosexual men, and deny them of jobs or the chance to interact with the straigh population
    or
    7. something else i have not thought of?

    And how effective would each method of “not accepting homosexuality” be carried out, and how would it work?

    I’m genuinely curious what you mean

    Because having gay men in singapore is not like deciding to “accept casinos” in Singapore, where you decide to have them, and you start building them

    Because gay men would continuously be born to decent, normal, honest-to-goodness, straight, traditional families…..

  28. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 11:27 am

    I was thinking about all your multiple choice but things are not so clear that they fit into this multiple choice structure. It is not clear if this whole thing is a biolgoical switch that is hardwired (how do you explain bi-sexuals). The study of separated twins do not show absolute correlation.

    So I will say discourage them from being homosexuals but if they can help it, tell them not to be promiscuous.

  29. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 11:36 am

    Joe Lee

    I think you are confusing promiscuity and infidelity.

    Infidelity harms family, like your example of Tiger Wood. He is MARRIED!.

    Promiscuity, wrong?
    hmmmm if you are responsible and uses safe sex and SINGLE, then why is it bad?
    Does it matter to you and me what other ppl do behind closed door?
    Be it the person straight or gay?

    ///I’m a pig but constrained by biology and (lack of)wealth so as a ratio there is a lower incidence of promiscuity among straight men. ///

    Ah, for the wealth challenged there’s always Geylang or some part in JB.
    And its not lower incidence, its too common that its not even news anymore.

    And its is not just a ‘small segment’ of heterosexual population that cant behave.
    (trust me, i go to geyland to eat durian, ok)

    Finally your point #3, is saying gay people’s tendency to promiscuity, as alcohol to genetically alcoholic teen? (if there is such a thing call alcoholism gene?).
    Seriously?

  30. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 11:44 am

    So basically you have 2 recommendations to homosexual men :

    - “Not to be promiscuous” : I think this is less controversial, because promiscuity is a choice everyone can make, and we can encourage everyone — male, female, straight, gay, bi, les, — to adopt a less promiscuous lifestyle. So this is really about being against promiscuity, not against homosexuality.

    - “discourage them from being homosexuals”
    Can I ask you a personal question? How would you react, if one day your daughter (or hypothetical daughter, or sister etc) brought home a fiance, and she announced that “Mr Tan here, has been a promiscuous gay man with over 100 lovers until last year. Then, he met me, and I discouraged and convinced him not to be homosexual. He then decided to propose to me, and now I’m going to marry him, even though he has said he’s not really attracted to me, but to men. But he says that he really doesn’t want to lead a gay lifestyle anymore, because of everybody’s discouragement, not because he realised he could get an erection with women. But since I believe in this morality too, I’m still going to marry him, knowing very well he may never be able to get an erection with me, but I’m going to help him do the right thing.”

  31. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 11:52 am

    JoeLee,

    I hope you don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to be mean or difficult, but I think there are a lot of phrases that people often use, and everyone understands it in a different way, and when we stop and think about what they mean, some of these phrases can be quite weird in practice

    Which is why I’ll like to break down the meaning of these phrases like “not accepting homosexuality” into what it really entails in practice, and see what people really mean, and what people really can do……

    Other ambiguous phrases include “religious tolerance” or “respecting each other” etc etc……. What do they really mean??? hmmm will start these discussions some other time maybe, = )

  32. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    JoeLee

    ///My worry is that if there is widespread acceptance, there will be a proliferation of a lifestyle along with it gay pubs, gay bars, gay saunas etc etc. We already have big enough headaches with a small segment of the heterosexual population who cannot behave, why do we want to bring in what we already see in many gay communities in the west…do we want what we see in San Francisco Castro..///

    I wonder what is it you find so offensive with what you see in gay communities in the west? . . . San Francisco Castro?
    The gay bars, pubs and saunas?

    I think this is an issue about equality if you dig beyond the surface.

    If you have the preconception that bars, pubs and saunas are morally wrong.
    Then let me state an even more obvious scenario.
    For every one gay bar there are literallty dozen or more ‘normal straight’ bar in SG.
    For every gay sauna there are likewise tons of KTV hostess clubs and massage parlors.

    So by your logic, gay people drinking is wrong but straight people drinking is not?

    If you want to define bars, clubs and sauna wrong, you have every rights to be.
    But you should target them ALL as whole. Not just selectively targeting gay bars, pubs and so on.

    That’s very selective and prejudiced and bigoted.

  33. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    Mathia Lee,

    If I had a daughter that that did that, I’ll tell her I won’t approve as the feller might fall back to his promiscuous ways since he has been doing it all his life. Same if my daughter brough home a know reformed buglar – he will have to find his yellow ribbon some where else.

  34. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Kentz,

    I wish for those heterosexual pubs to be raided more often and closed down if possible. I do not have double standards you accuse me of – don’t be so quick to call me a bigot.

    I’m asked to accept gay people – I just said what it takes for me to accept them and all I get is denial. If you don’t want my acceptance it is fine – go do what you want. The laws in Singapore doesn’t stop you.

  35. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    JoeLee, Exactly my point!

    And that’s exactly what most people would do too!

    So the whole idea of “not accepting homosexuality” by “asking them to turn straight” doesn’t exactly work, right?

    Because deep down inside, we all know that you can’t change a person’s orientation, and that is is also very very difficult to change a person’s behavior right?

    And so, the most workable approach that benefits everyone would be

    1. To accept people for who they are, and provide info on how they can best minimise their risk ie. by being sexually responsible, using condoms, doing regular testing, being open and truthful with consentual partners

    2. Recognise that your potential partner (straigh/gay relationships) MAY have been promiscuous and is lying to you, or MAY have been unknowingly cheated by an irresponsible promiscuous partner previously. So always practice safe, responsible sex, no matter how wonderful your potential partner is.

    3. Recognise that some solutions look good in theory, but cannot work in practice, because even if they wanted to, you wouldn’t let them. And so propagating such solutions will NOT achieve the consequence of improving the situation, but instead, alienate people from one another needlessly.

    4. Recognise that we can say to another person “I am your friend, even though I disagree with certain behaviors of yours, even though I will not practice certain behaviors of yours. I am your friend, and I respect your right to make choices, even though I do not think you’ve made the right choices. I am your friend, even though I cannot understand your biology or your emotions, but I will try my best to. I am your friend, and I will not let any differences we were born with come in the way of our friendship, because deep down inside, I know that we can still respect and cherish each other as friends.”

  36. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:41 pm

    I think perhaps, as a society, we also need to think about what these words mean

    - accept
    - approve
    - understand
    - condone
    - agree
    - encourage
    - promote
    etc

    Just because I UNDERSTAND the injustice a terrorist feels, doesn’t mean I CONDONE the act

    Just because I UNDERSTAND greed, doesn’t mean I APPROVE of it

    Just because I ACCEPT a smoker for who he is, doesn’t mean I APPROVE of his smoking

    Just because I APPROVE of homosexual relationships doesn’t mean I PROMOTE it (it’s not like a product you buy! it’s how you were born! )

    Just because I AGREE to abortions doesn’t mean I ENCOURAGE it

  37. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    JoeLee.

    I am so glad you say you dont approved of the hetero pubs/clubs and ktv hostess bars.

    But the double standard still remain isnt it? and here’s why.

    To you, Gay’s acceptance is linked to the gay bars, pubs and sauna.
    But for the hetero, there’s no such condition on societal acceptance. Isnt it?
    That’s why i cant help but still pointed out the double standard.

    When we ask for acceptance, we ask for as an equal human being, no more and no less. No denial or any sort.

    But your acceptance of another human being comes with conditions set from self-perceived higher moral superiority.

    I am not sure if this kind of acceptance is worth it, at best a condescending one if given. Urgh

  38. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    :::Because deep down inside, we all know that you can’t change a person’s orientation:::

    I think this is still open to debate. If gays are born with this orientation, and it is genetically transmitted then it really violated the laws of natural selection because they need to …a woman to propagate those genes. The church believes it is not an inborn orientation and reject homosexuality outright – you cannot say the church is wrong because there is no evidence to say this.

    Suppose they have this inborn orientation and have a tendency toward promiscuity, unsafe sex as part of their lifestyle, I think we minimise harm and maximise benefits to our society but telling them clearly their colorful lifestyle is not accepted – even San Francisco banned the gay parade for a few years. The last time we allowed those gay beach parties the New Paper reported a public orgy. The govt did the right thing to ban those parties. Why should we accept this behavior,…along with it the disporportionate number of AIDS cases among gay men? There is nothing in our laws that is enforced to prohibit men from homosexual – this is enough. If they want acceptance, that the rest of us has the right to say what we want in exchange for this acceptance.

  39. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    Kentz,

    In what way are gays not equal beings? I think equality is another issue. Here I’m ask to accept – what is the meaning of accept? It means to say yes to homosexuality and whatever is associated with homosexuality.

    Such immoral behavior is rejected by the majority of heterosexual population, most of us are not associated with this behavior and consider it shameful. Also, we have to accept heterosexuality because the human race will perish with it.

  40. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    JoeLee

    ///If they want acceptance, that the rest of us has the right to say what we want in exchange for this acceptance.///

    Thank goodness not all the general population stand with you, so dont be too hasty to use the term ‘the rest of us’.

    There are those with more comonsense to recogized what you say for what it is.
    Starts with letter ‘B’ and you fill in the rest.

  41. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Joe Lee

    ///you cannot say the church is wrong because there is no evidence to say this. ///

    I will never bother to say your church is wrong, but American Psychological Association does.

    Sigh.

  42. mathialee said, on December 9, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    JoeLee,

    you’ve 2 points here and I will talk about the 2nd and then the 1st.

    Banning public orgies — amongst gay or straight — is not the same as “not accepting homosexuality”. You’re simply “not accepting public orgies/promiscuity”

    San Fran is one of the most accepting cities of homosexuality — AS PEOPLE, who feel and love another person who hapens to be the same gender.

    By making the environment more sexually safe, by reducing opportunities for sexually irresponsible practices to occur, nobody is “not accepting homosexuality”.

    Same as banning heterosexual spas/palours/KTVs: nobody is being “not accepting of heterosexuality”. The non-acceptance is just of irresponsible behavior.

    By making a person feel less worthy because of the poor behavior of other members of the group is unfair discrimination. It’s like making me, as a woman, feel less worthy because some women are prostitutes out of sheer greed.

    ———————————————————

    I think the interpretation of homosexuality as being wrong in the eyes of the church because it is not BIOLOGICALLY natural, is one of the biggest mistakes it biblical interpretation.

    If you examine biblical principles throughout the whole bible, you will notice that it NEVER NEVER uses “biologically natural” as the yardstick for right or wrong.

    In fact, most of what the bible considers “sins”, are also recognised by the bible to be very “biologically natural”

    for eg. greed —- it’s a natural, biological impulse
    eg. revenge
    eg. adultery, lust
    eg. jealousy
    etc etc

    Paul, in the new testament, wrote alot about no longer being a “natural” man. No longer being a slave to the body, and the desires of the flesh. THe spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, no???? Man shall not live by bread alone, no????

    If being “biologically natural” meant that something would be morally right, then all these would not be sins anymore.

    Likewise, loving your enemy, is far far from being “biologically natural”. Turning your other cheek to those who slap you, is far far from being “biologically natural”.

    So, “biologically natural” was never, and should never, be a relavent criteria for what biblical sin is.

    “Biologically natural” shouldn’t then, suddenly become a criteria for what is a “morally correct” sexual orientation, as far as biblical principles go.

    In my opinion (non-biblical, but my own specuulative opinion), much of what the bible, or other religious texts, or common sense of ethics, call “Moral”, is just centered on the question ” Does it cause harm to oneself, or others?”

    In biblical times, without the invention/widespread access to contraceptives and condoms, adultery, fornication etc would be harmful because STIs and unwanted pregnancy could not be prevented.

    In today’s case, adultery is still harmful because of the emotional harm it causes.

    But between consenting partners, who have no other partner to harm, and who practice safe sex, will not be harming anyone else.

    In biblical times, I SUSPECT, there were many people, because of the prevalent greek culture then, who were having promiscuous homosexual sex. I SUSPECT, that many of these people were claiming promiscuous homosexual sex to be sanctioned by the church because it was neither adulterous nor was it fornication. But because of the STI risk it posed, it was still harmful behavior. And so I SUSPECT , what Paul was really saying was that, “Hey, just because it’s between the same gender, doesn’t mean it’s all right, cos it’s still harmful too! And so it’s a sin!!” I doubt he was even addressing faithful, monogoumous homosexual people, because in those days, there probably wasn’t many of such couples around. Why? because in that culture, 13 year old children were married off —- marriage wasn’t about love, but about societal obligations, and no one had a choice. By the time they took on homosexual lovers, they were probably older, and had a spouse. And you can see how it becomes harmful.

  43. Kentz said, on December 9, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    Joe Lee

    ///Also, we have to accept heterosexuality because the human race will perish with it.///

    Are you so certain about that?.
    There are such thing call science that in a few decade human race might have an option to have different way to procreate.

    Even at the moment that are so many ways of procreation that would be seem ‘unnatural’ to you, ie . invitro, surrogacy and artificial insemination etc.

    Honestly, i would rather the women need not go through childbirth naturally if possible.
    Stretch marks, ceasarian scar and death from childbirth just to name a few.

  44. JoeLee said, on December 9, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    :::I think the interpretation of homosexuality as being wrong in the eyes of the church because it is not BIOLOGICALLY natural, is one of the biggest mistakes it biblical interpretation.:::

    I don’t think that is the main argument against homosexuality by the church. Saying it is biologically unnatural means that it is not inborn but a learned behavior that can be unlearned. The Biible (which I don’t believe) has specific passages against homosexuality:

    Leviticus 18:22, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.”

    Deuteronomy 23:17, “There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”

    Since I’m not Christian and don’t believe the Bible, I think being against homosexuality just because it is in an ancient book whose origins cannot be verified is plain wrong.

    I’m against homosexuality mainly because of the widely accepted lifestyle associated with it is not right. I’m willing to accept lesbians – they have the lowest rate of HIV infections among the 3 groups and are know to have long term monogamous relationships.

  45. Kentz said, on December 10, 2009 at 2:02 am

    Joe Lee

    I can understand you you feel about acceptance of homosexual and their associated lifestlye.

    I too in the same predicament when it comes to christian. You see my estate is near a church.

    I cannot accept that the church goers illegally parked at the road side to my apartment every weekend. Not only because they cause safety hazard and bottle neck at the junction of the road, but they annoyed the hell out of me.

    Therefore, i cannot not accept them, and my impression about all of them is very negative.

    So when i meet anyone who say they are christian i have natural aversion to them.

    Are we on the same page now?

  46. JoeLee said, on December 10, 2009 at 10:09 am

    Kentz,

    Since you’re badly inconvenience by inconsiderate church goers, your inability to accept them is understandable. If they persist, it can result in an aversion towards them. So it is best for Christians to lead by example and their behavior towards others is a testimony for others on the virtues of their religion. I perfectly agree with what you say. The reason why most people do not feel the same way towards Christians is they do not have the same experience as you.

    Similarly, if gay people are widely know for good sexual behavior and personal encounters with time validate this, acceptance of gay people will be widespread. We all read our papers, they report the cases, we all have our own encounters and form our opinion. The current level of acceptance reflect this. I is easy to dismiss all this as prejudice, but the stats, the infection rates, the hard numbers tells us the cold facts and the need for change and concern.

  47. Kentz said, on December 10, 2009 at 10:55 am

    Joe Lee

    That’s the thing you see.
    It not a simple incidence to be dismissed by a matter of inconvenience.
    A lot of people have the same experience as me and come to same conclusion, some with even more drastic aversion too.

    They complained it is immoral that these church goers, usually with kids.
    And you know kids right, likes to run around while their parents parking the car.
    Many people called it Immoral to subject children to safety hazard. I agree with them.
    Its nots only immoral, but illegal (that’s the thing about yellow zig zag lines, no parking at all time ya)

    So where are we now then?

    Christians’ image as whole is tarnished by the action of few.
    And it is in the papers (Aware), reported cases (couple that circulate anti-islam books) and my personal encounters to form my opinion (car park incident).

    But is it right to discriminate against them all, by the action of a some?

    Do I need to wait for them to show me their good behaviour before i can accept them?


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